Did you catch this ruling yesterday? The Supreme Court of the United States ruled -- unanimously -- that an identity-theft law, a fan favorite among prosecutors, cannot be used against illegal immigrants who get caught using fake Social Security numbers. Instead, the Court held, illegal immigrants who use Social Security numbers to commit other crimes must know that the identification number belongs to a real person. The distinction is worth an extra two years of punishment.
From the New York Times:Stephen H. Legomsky, a professor of immigration law at Washington University School of Law in St. Louis, said Monday’s decision would have a major impact on the strategy of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, making it more difficult for the agency to press criminal charges against immigrants with no other offenses but working illegally.
“In the ordinary immigration case, this will no longer be a weapon,” Professor Legomsky said.
The Obama administration has said that it will shift the focus of immigration enforcement to employers who intentionally hire unauthorized immigrants in order to pay lower wages or otherwise lower costs. But last week the administration said agents would continue to detain illegal immigrants found in raids.
Read the rest of the story here.
Tuesday, May 5, 2009
Justices Limit Use Of Identity Theft Law In Immigration Cases
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37 comments:
There should a new law passed making it a felony to use made up social security numbers, then.
This is what bothers me. Every employer is supposed to have a completed I9 form for each employee it hires. The employee has to provide 2 forms of valid id, Drivers license AND a social security card or birth certificate. The laws that are already in place should be enforced.
Michele
Honestly, I really have to put the blame on the employers who hire these people. If they followed the law, and if they were the ones subject to prosecution, you would see a lot less of these cases.
my wife has had several illegals ask to "borrow" her ss#. borrow? really?
I know someone who had their identity stolen by an illegal immigrant. This immigrant, to this day, continues to use the SS number for work purposes. Meanwhile, the US citizen continues to accrue income for social security purposes. Very strange.
Hey! To bring this back into the credit realm, can you claim the illegals wages as yearly income on a credit app?
j/k
Only if it appeared on your tax return, right? You'd have to be able to document it. That's my hunch.
The democrats want illegals inside the USA. Illegal immigrants vote democrat. If the democrats grant them citizenship, it is a way to hold on to power.
"immigrant, to this day, continues to use the SS number for work purposes. Meanwhile, the US citizen continues to accrue income for social security"
Who pays the taxes? I wonder if any citizen was prosecuted by the IRS for back taxes based on a stolen social security card that was used by an illegal to work? Does the citizen have to prove the social security card was stolen to get charges dropped?
Yes. The way this person found out is that the IRS sent a bill for unpaid taxes. The innocent person had to show that there was no way that he or she could have earned the wages (different state, for example). The IRS then put a flag on the SS number (about 8 years ago). IRS has never come back to this person, even though illegal worker continues to use SS number.
Yeah, we need a better system for immigration, or a better system for payroll taxes that doesn't use SSNs. I know it's a huge headache, but why punish someone for the crime of identity theft when all they wanted to do was work, not ruin someone's credit or steal from them?
And yet another step down the road to ignoring certain laws...
"illegal immigrants who use Social Security numbers to commit other crimes must know that the identification number belongs to a real person"
Wait, so are they saying illegal immigrants using Social Security numbers are so STUPID that they don't realize that these numbers, which identify a person, don't know that they identify a person?
That's like me saying "I'm sorry for driving drunk, I didn't know beer made you drunk." There is only one purpose for Social Security cards in verifying employment. To say that they didn't KNOW is beyond stupid.
That being said, I think businesses should be fined into oblivion. Even better, act start enforcing the laws...
The ruling is obvious. What a law should have said matters none.
On the other hand, US census count is a 9-digit number, SSN is a 9-digit number, random chance says one in three use a live one. SSN's should be at least as long as credit card numbers. Feds need to add security features, and replace lost/stolen IDs with new ones. Nine-digit SSN's are obsolete -- like five-digit phone numbers.
A local case may be headed for more national coverage. A county DA seized thousands of IRS tax returns. Review of those returns showed many fako tax ID's. On the other hand, the warrant resembled a fishing expedition: higher courts will view that warrant. Does a county DA have any business reading our federal tax returns? Keywords "Operation Number Games"
nytimes.com .../2009/04/14/us/14greeley.html
So let me get this straight: an illegal used the SSN of an actual US citizen 8 years ago, the IRS flagged the SSN, and the illegal continues to use the same SSN 8 years later? Who the heck cares if the actual use of the SSN to work is a crime or not?!? Why hasn't ICE been called in to deport the illegal and press criminal charges against the employer? They obviously know where he works if wages are being reported to the IRS.
I'd honestly prefer that they don't prosecute the illegals for this, as long as they are on the next bus or plane back to their country of origin. Save the prison space for the leeches on society that are here legally.
Someone was using my Social Security Number, and I discovered it when I first pulled my credit reports about four years ago. I found out even though this is illegal, no one will take any action.
I got the accounts and this person's name off my report, but they still show up on my Lexis-Nexis. It was an Hispanic female, with thousands of dollars of medical bills and baby furniture stores she never paid. Talk about stereotypes!
The person I know knew exactly where the person worked. The authorities did nothing -- and continue to do nothing.
The Anon who claimed "democrats" want illegals here... what is it with you people? Do you have to politicize everything? And as usual with these types, there is not one ounce of sense in this nonsensical claim - first, it was a court decision, not the administration! The administration argued for the opposite! Second, it was not a "democratic" court - it was a unanimous vote - ALL JUSTICES (the majority of whom are Republican anyhow) shared that opinion, including the ultra conservatives of Scalia, Alito and Thomas. It was 9:0 decision. So where does in this scenario enter the "democrats want the illegals to stay" when it was the democratic administration that argued the opposite here? But as usual with certain types, don't let the facts get in the way of right-wing nuttery raving and blaming the democrats for everything... yeah, we've seen the results for the past 8 years, and a great job that was too. Let's quit politicizing everything in sight. And what this story is doing on *credit*matters blog I don't know, I guess everything is connected by some kind of stretched connection, lol - hey how about a story on some cute puppies next... you can buy those on a visa right!
Tom, it was an identity theft story! LOL. Actually, after I published it I was thinking -- sheesh, this sure is a tangentially-related story for the site.
But whatever. You guys usually cut me a break when I post something like this. And it's always appreciated.
Not a problem, CM, except when illegals are involved, it always brings out the worst in some people, and there's some old-fashioned political bashing that goes on. That's why I was surprised you'd want that on your blog - this particular subject is touchy (another touchy one: gay marriage). The focus quickly shifts from anything even remotely connected with credit matters, and the discussion is rarely constructive. In general certain subjects are best avoided (like religion!), if you're looking for a congenial board... there'll always be some knucklehead who'll post blatantly partisan or racist stuff. But it's you blog, post what you wish, obviously!
Duly noted, Tom. I figure my readers will weed out those who make dumb comments. By and large, my readers police this blog very well. What can I say? I have a lot of faith in my readers. It's pretty rare to have knucklehead comments -- but they do occur. When they do, readers jump on it and put the message in check.
Give 'em hell Tom. This "supreme court" is 5x4 in favour of conservative replicants that put bush in office.
~Don
That's why I jumped on that comment, CM :) Illegal aliens is not a partisan issue. If I wanted to get partisan, I could've answered that it seems the other party is responsible, since most employers are R, and without employers willing to employ illegals, there would be NO illegal aliens coming for work (as 99% of them do). So that would make Repubs responsible for illegal aliens, no? Of course, that's silly. Which is why we should NOT politicize this issue in petty partisan displays. And it's always good to be armed with facts in any argument... Matthew: the reason why it was stated that way is because most illegals just make up the social security number (rather than deliberately steal from a particular person - though this certainly occurs frequently as well) - and when you make up such numbers given the population of the U.S., about once in three you hit a real person by chance... so you got it wrong: in fact, chances the illegal DOES NOT know, and that's a mathematical fact. Facts, always above fact-free outrage. Complicated issues rarely lend themselves to easy black and white portrayals.
Well, I TRIED to tie this in to credit matters.
Oh well...
It seems to me that the group could use something of a diversion. The written equivalent of pulling out something shiny and sparkly, so ...
Today's puzzle is the name of a once popular song, expressed as program code:
if MALE_SIBLING = true then_
OVERWEIGHT = false
.
Tom, when Bush sent ICE to deport illegal immigrants, it was the democrats that protested. Don't let the truth interfere with your political agenda. The truth is they came here illegally. The first act they did on American soil was to violate our laws.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHPm_TEQ0PA
?
No, that's not the name of the song. Sorry.
He aint heavy, he's my Brother!
Gee, I love how the wing nuts never accept any responsibility. Eight years of the worst president except for Buchanan, a regime that had unchecked power for at least 6 of those years controlling all branches of the government: executive, legislative (both houses), and judicial (Supreme Court was and still is Republican), and still they find a way to blame the democrats. So, during all those years, with all that power, did we see the illegal problem solved? What could the democrats do to oppose repubs who had total control? The repubs controlled all branches of government - if they wanted to "solve" the illegal problem, they had 6 years of absolutely unchecked power. Somehow, I didn't see the numbers of illegals go down during that period of time. Because no matter how much power and control the repubs have, whenever there's a problem - who is responsible? Democrats! That's right, even if they were nowhere near. Rank hypocrisy. And again what does this decision have to do with the democrats? A republican court, and a UNANIMOUS 9:0 decision, with the democratic administration opposing... yet who is to blame? Democrats! When it comes to Bush and the wingnuts, "truth" is always on the opposite side.
Spooky, another puzzle please...
Tom, maybe you believe that Bush could push everything through congress. Bush didn't control congress. Bush didn't always do what republicans wanted. What we know is democrats have been fighting to give amnesty to illegal immigrants, to the people who illegally entered the United States and stole jobs from working Americans. Tom, do you know what a filibuster is? You say republicans controlled congress, what you don't say is by how much. In 2001-2002 the senate was split 50-50 split. In 2003-2004 the senate was split 51-49. Tom, you can't spin facts the way slick Willy did.
Tom the anon didn’t politicize this blog half as much as you did. Then you call out CM because you think identity theft doesn’t have anything to do with credit? Seriously? I doubt CM is going to steer clear of a relevant story because a touchy issue surrounds it. Most good writers don’t fear the issues.
That being said I agree with the ruling. They are not saying that using a fake SS# isn’t wrong, just distinguishing between crimes. It was an easy decision and I am not surprised it was unanimous.
I guess there is no point in arguing with wing nuts. No democrat ever filibustered Bush on immigration - so that's BS. As usual. If Bush really wanted to deport all illegals, he could have pushed for it. Instead, I seem to recall Bush had his own immigration "reform" bill, which as I remember many repubs opposed him on. So there. Whatever, keep listening to the right wing hate radio for your talking points on how democrats are guilty of everything. I'm going to bow out of this discussion. As a parting shot, I love the Bill Clinton crack. What an amazing comparison - Bush vs Clinton. Booming economy and record budget surpluses vs destroyed economy and the biggest debt load in human history. Successful war in the Balkans with no American casualties, vs a war based on lies and a quagmire of death and waste in Iraq. World-wide respect vs world wide contempt. I'll take Clinton over Bush a million times, thank you. You want to crack about Clinton? With Bush in your corner? Ha, ha, ha, ha! Talk about not living in the "reality based community".
Tom, way to bow out of a discussion. Last word much?
BTW, the only one who insisted on calling the opposition an insulting name (wingnuts) was you.
Your types... Ugh.
Anyone who thinks that illegal immigration is not a political issue is a drooling retard.
Why do you think Arizona, New Mexico and Texas are about to become blue states? Its because of all the poor, illegals voting for hee-lah-ree!!!
Tom wrote: "when illegals are involved, it always brings out the worst in some people"
You use the word "worst" to describe Americans, I would use the word best. When we defend our nation it brings out the best, most patriotic sentiment in many Americans. Americans want to defend the border. We don't want foriegners who came here illegally deciding American elections.
What a joke. Of course it is identity theft. Where do they think the number comes from?
But where is the employer in all of this? They are required to verify that the person is who they say they are. They can verify the ssn online and get immediate results - but they don't. Why? Because they don't care.
Bullhooey is what this is!
Chris, how, my dear, do you think these people are voting? Illegals cannot vote. They wont have the proper documents. When the rolls are verified, it will show up as a fake.
Same political BS, as always. Let's not blame the GOP's inability to come up with a cohesive image that meets the standards of the US people...no! It MUST be the illegals who ARE NOT voting.
Illegals who are here working and committ no other crime other than illegally entering this country should not be prosecuted for using a SSN. Most illegals pay taxes twice- that is right -twice. They want to do the right thing and so many of them get TIN (tax id #s) from the IRS and pay taxes every year and they pay taxes on the borrowed SSN (usually that citizen has sold the ssn and has same or very similar name). I think the whole immigration system needs to be reviewed. The way we hold immigration visas as lotteries to be given to countries like INDIA so we can get cheap tech and dev labor sucks. What about those who just want a better life here? Do not forget that anyone who is not NATIVE AMERICAN is an illegal immigrant.
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